I think that there is a market niche for a CMS that can offer seamless integration between rich client interfaces powered by javascript and HTML5 and a powerful backend CMS. In the case of Umbraco, the powerful CMS is allready there and constantly evolving.
When it comes to short lived but intense campaign sites I often find myself basing them on Umbraco eventhough we're never going to let the client into the backend - we manage everything. But because of the powerful toolbox and the excellent pro package Contour we save time by using Umbraco. Still, campaign sites often means javascript-packed complex interfaces that integrate with other API's like Facebook and it's not always easy to figure out how to merge the interface with Umbraco. The CMS that can provide tools for this kind of seamless integration will take serious market shares.
I have to say that sounds nice, but my only problem is HTML5 is still trivial. I mean it works perfect in the latest versions of Safari, Chrome and Firefox but not IE. Sure there is IE9 but the fact is a lot of end users are still going to be using IE7 and IE8. This is the issue I have when using things like CSS3 corners and webkit effects, do I really want this huge variation in appearance between browsers. Admittedly there is IE stylesheets where you can provide image corners but its "hacky".
I guess in short what I'm getting at is Facebook Connect integration with the user management system would be great, but maybe some HTML5 features may hurt. After all we see features like Facebook Connect in lots of forum script such as vBulletin and iP Board. Umbraco is superior!
I don't know if you know about this project yet by Drew Wilson (Talented guy check out his site @ http://www.drewwilson.com/ - does not work in IE) called Fullsize, you can see it here: http://addfullsize.com/. Now it would be great to implement this into TinyMCE on default package!
Let me know what you think about HTML5 issues :) / Ryan
I think what you're expecting of Umbraco is something that Umbraco does not try and target itself for, and that is a quick setup-and-go system.
As you'll know from having installed Umbraco it's possible to end up with a system which has no templates, not document types and no pages. This is a deliberate design decision, by doing it this way we are not restricting developers to have to have their sites look or operate in any particular way.
By having a CMS which is 'HTML5 compliant' you are producing a CMS which will generate HTML for you. Sure you may have some control over that, you would probably be able to modify the CSS of it, but in reality you're HTML structure is going to be in a predefined format.
Umbraco does not have this restriction, Umbraco wont generate HTML for you, leaving you to create a HTML5/ CSS3/ ECMAScript 5 website if that's what your client requires.
I don't agree with you 100%, but after all - that's why we are having a discussion. :-)
Reading my original post I see that it focuses too much on the here and now - projects I'm currently involved in. I think what I was really aiming at is what will be expected of a CMS in the future. We can't predict what's going to be The Next Great Thing in the future (Apple and Google where nobodies in the telecom world just a few years ago) but there are trends that point in the general direction. My biggest source of inspiration is looking at younger people to see what their media habits are, what kind of devices they use and what they think is cool and useful. One thing that strikes me is that interfaces is becoming more and more important. After all, who would want to visit a web page with an interface that is inferior to that of the interface I get in an app on an iPhone or an Android phone? People want the animations, the slides, the zooms, the pointing, dragging and clicking. HTML 5 will be the major toolbox in the tool for building these interfaces.
I have an open source jQuery plugin called Smooth Div Scroll and I get mail all the time from people that want it to behave more like the scrolling apps on the iPhone. Why not? The iPhone is a success, people love it and its interface is very intuitive. It sets the standard to what's expected of "scrolling things" so I'll just have to live up to that or disappear. So in the next version I'm going to add mouse wheel scrolling capabilities and easing to make the animations more smooth. Perhaps even dragging and throw-scrolling, just like you do on the iPhone except the finger is a mouse pointer.
So what does all this have to do with Umbraco? Well, the point I was trying to make was that any CMS that facilitates the creation of websites with rich interfaces will be better off when it comes to facing up to the challenges that lay ahead when it comes to interface design. When I work with Umbraco today it's possible to build rich interface sites, but there are not special tools or features that make it any easier than just building it from scratch (using regular ASP.NET pages, a custom database and so on). The only thing that facilitates the work is the ability to store and access data using the CMS, to code some of the data fetching logic using XSLT and the ability to gather data (for example using Contour). But when it comes to the actual client interface, you'll have to wring it on your own.
So what I wanted with this thread was to initiate a discussion that evolves around ideas for a CMS that makes it easier for people to build sites with rich interfaces that live up to people's expectations - expectations that are getting higher and higher as smarphones, pad computers and lot's of new devices are being introduced.
Having worked with the Internet since 1996, I'm not the kind of person who easily gets carried away when it comes to novelties and buzz words. I've seen trends come and go (WAP anyone?), but when it comes to rich interfaces I believe it's not a trend but a natural next step.
Speaking of buzz, read this article by Chris Anderson. For once, I think he has something important to say:
Have you looked at /base at all? afaik it's a REST-like way of accessing Umbraco content. Depending on the exact requirements you could write a /base interface to return json and build a 100% js front end. *maybe*
I haven't used base so far, but I've used a similar method. I create resource pages that output JSON using an XSLT and then I load these pages into my jQuery code using the URL and the jQuery AJAX methods.
Perhaps my way of doing it is more complicated than using base? On monday I will read more about base to see if it can simplify the process of creating javascript driven sites based on Umbraco.
Here's another interesting tool. It's a javascript that converts XML into JSON:
Focus on javascript and HTML5
I think that there is a market niche for a CMS that can offer seamless integration between rich client interfaces powered by javascript and HTML5 and a powerful backend CMS. In the case of Umbraco, the powerful CMS is allready there and constantly evolving.
When it comes to short lived but intense campaign sites I often find myself basing them on Umbraco eventhough we're never going to let the client into the backend - we manage everything. But because of the powerful toolbox and the excellent pro package Contour we save time by using Umbraco. Still, campaign sites often means javascript-packed complex interfaces that integrate with other API's like Facebook and it's not always easy to figure out how to merge the interface with Umbraco. The CMS that can provide tools for this kind of seamless integration will take serious market shares.
/Thomas Kahn
Hey Thomas,
I have to say that sounds nice, but my only problem is HTML5 is still trivial. I mean it works perfect in the latest versions of Safari, Chrome and Firefox but not IE. Sure there is IE9 but the fact is a lot of end users are still going to be using IE7 and IE8. This is the issue I have when using things like CSS3 corners and webkit effects, do I really want this huge variation in appearance between browsers. Admittedly there is IE stylesheets where you can provide image corners but its "hacky".
I guess in short what I'm getting at is Facebook Connect integration with the user management system would be great, but maybe some HTML5 features may hurt. After all we see features like Facebook Connect in lots of forum script such as vBulletin and iP Board. Umbraco is superior!
I don't know if you know about this project yet by Drew Wilson (Talented guy check out his site @ http://www.drewwilson.com/ - does not work in IE) called Fullsize, you can see it here: http://addfullsize.com/. Now it would be great to implement this into TinyMCE on default package!
Let me know what you think about HTML5 issues :) / Ryan
I think what you're expecting of Umbraco is something that Umbraco does not try and target itself for, and that is a quick setup-and-go system.
As you'll know from having installed Umbraco it's possible to end up with a system which has no templates, not document types and no pages. This is a deliberate design decision, by doing it this way we are not restricting developers to have to have their sites look or operate in any particular way.
By having a CMS which is 'HTML5 compliant' you are producing a CMS which will generate HTML for you. Sure you may have some control over that, you would probably be able to modify the CSS of it, but in reality you're HTML structure is going to be in a predefined format.
Umbraco does not have this restriction, Umbraco wont generate HTML for you, leaving you to create a HTML5/ CSS3/ ECMAScript 5 website if that's what your client requires.
Hi Ryan and Slace!
I don't agree with you 100%, but after all - that's why we are having a discussion. :-)
Reading my original post I see that it focuses too much on the here and now - projects I'm currently involved in. I think what I was really aiming at is what will be expected of a CMS in the future. We can't predict what's going to be The Next Great Thing in the future (Apple and Google where nobodies in the telecom world just a few years ago) but there are trends that point in the general direction. My biggest source of inspiration is looking at younger people to see what their media habits are, what kind of devices they use and what they think is cool and useful. One thing that strikes me is that interfaces is becoming more and more important. After all, who would want to visit a web page with an interface that is inferior to that of the interface I get in an app on an iPhone or an Android phone? People want the animations, the slides, the zooms, the pointing, dragging and clicking. HTML 5 will be the major toolbox in the tool for building these interfaces.
I have an open source jQuery plugin called Smooth Div Scroll and I get mail all the time from people that want it to behave more like the scrolling apps on the iPhone. Why not? The iPhone is a success, people love it and its interface is very intuitive. It sets the standard to what's expected of "scrolling things" so I'll just have to live up to that or disappear. So in the next version I'm going to add mouse wheel scrolling capabilities and easing to make the animations more smooth. Perhaps even dragging and throw-scrolling, just like you do on the iPhone except the finger is a mouse pointer.
So what does all this have to do with Umbraco? Well, the point I was trying to make was that any CMS that facilitates the creation of websites with rich interfaces will be better off when it comes to facing up to the challenges that lay ahead when it comes to interface design. When I work with Umbraco today it's possible to build rich interface sites, but there are not special tools or features that make it any easier than just building it from scratch (using regular ASP.NET pages, a custom database and so on). The only thing that facilitates the work is the ability to store and access data using the CMS, to code some of the data fetching logic using XSLT and the ability to gather data (for example using Contour). But when it comes to the actual client interface, you'll have to wring it on your own.
So what I wanted with this thread was to initiate a discussion that evolves around ideas for a CMS that makes it easier for people to build sites with rich interfaces that live up to people's expectations - expectations that are getting higher and higher as smarphones, pad computers and lot's of new devices are being introduced.
Having worked with the Internet since 1996, I'm not the kind of person who easily gets carried away when it comes to novelties and buzz words. I've seen trends come and go (WAP anyone?), but when it comes to rich interfaces I believe it's not a trend but a natural next step.
Speaking of buzz, read this article by Chris Anderson. For once, I think he has something important to say:
http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2010/10/features/the-web-is-dead
/Thomas Kahn
Hey Thomas,
Have you looked at /base at all? afaik it's a REST-like way of accessing Umbraco content. Depending on the exact requirements you could write a /base interface to return json and build a 100% js front end. *maybe*
http://www.cultiv.nl/blog/2010/10/12/using-base-to-create-and-consume-a-json-string
Jay
Hi Jay!
I haven't used base so far, but I've used a similar method. I create resource pages that output JSON using an XSLT and then I load these pages into my jQuery code using the URL and the jQuery AJAX methods.
Perhaps my way of doing it is more complicated than using base? On monday I will read more about base to see if it can simplify the process of creating javascript driven sites based on Umbraco.
Here's another interesting tool. It's a javascript that converts XML into JSON:
http://www.thomasfrank.se/xml_to_json.html
Regards,
Thomas
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